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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
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Posted - 2014.11.12 07:26:50 -
[1] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Marlona Sky wrote: Why do they need more than one bs? I don't run incursions so I'm not up on their current meta.
There are different ships in an HQ incursion fleet. Depending on whom you fly with there will be snipers, dps, logi, and the drone bunny. Yes some of them will be pirate hulls (nightmare, mach, vindi) but you can also see the occasional hyperion, rokh, TFI. etc. Unless you are talking multiboxers you are very apt to see a mix of ships and styles and if you wan the best chance of being called up you will have an assortment handy so you can step into any role. So you bring a couple of BS's and maybe a cruiser or two. This is why I asked for this ship and why I am trying to follow this thread (aside from the debate societies additions) So . . . the basic stats. Is it big enough? Does it fullfill the stated role? Is the tank sufficient? I am NOT asking if it shoudl have jumpdrive, doomsday, hammer4 fittings. Just is it balanced enough that it is not 'safe against all' nor 'a paper bag with a screen door'. m
People are asking for crazy stuff because it is 'meh' as it is now, a 1.6m m3 freighter.
According to my finger math, with 2x fitted bs, T3 and a T2 logi, you will very likely be past the treshold of profitability.
But maybe it is exactly that what you have wanted, dunno, i do not see it as the highsec equivalent of a suitcase carrier, and not because of the inability to jump.
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Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2014.11.12 10:07:10 -
[2] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Anonymous Forumposter wrote:
So how do you account for the pilots that aren't currently at the staging area and need to get there. Your strategy ONLY works in a perfect situation and completely falls apart otherwise.
You ask your corp for help moving.
Doesnt the inclusion of a corp service kinda shrink the use cases to "i dont want to loose the insurance on my navy bs" ? |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 10:49:32 -
[3] - Quote
Fu Qjoo wrote:I do not get why this always leads to a massive threadnought. If you want to move a rigged BS now, you have 2 options:
- destroy the rigs and ship it in a JF/Freighter or have it hauled by a professional trucker
Now you get a third option. Why are you complaining? In its current state though, it is already on the edge of making option 1 and 2 extremely unattractive, which would cut 2 existing options down to 1. I do not think the game will benefit from taking options away. So I would rather see this ship at 300ish EHP fully tank fitted (well, there is no other option to fit it anyway). That forces you to chose time vs. money vs. risk. Which is good in my opinion. And for Null, it might add content as interfering with enemy logistic lines based on those ships will be a strategic option. We might see large battles around 25 escorted bowheads. Which would be good as well.
Maybe you should explain how using 300k ehp and ~30s align time makes mwd cloak 100k ehp with 4 stabs unattractive.
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Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 11:01:55 -
[4] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Barton Breau wrote:
Maybe you should explain how using 300k ehp and ~30s align time makes mwd cloak 100k ehp with 4 stabs unattractive.
Same reason why most use freighters over deep space transports.
When the bowhead can ferry 4-10 bs with a total value of below 500m, you will have a point. |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 11:35:50 -
[5] - Quote
Fu Qjoo wrote:Barton Breau wrote:
Maybe you should explain how using 300k ehp and ~30s align time makes mwd cloak 100k ehp with 4 stabs unattractive.
Apologies for being unprecise. My post was intended to refer to a situation in that more than one ship has to be moved. Which is obvious from the content but the wording was bad. I have edited it now.
I was kinda hoping for use cases to make your point clearer, especially for high, since much is being talked about incursion runners, where it is not unreasonable to expect 500-800m battleships, and the advantage of getting two of them into a very slow and vulnerable hull probably not being a very good thing, and a questionable time saver. |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 11:50:50 -
[6] - Quote
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:
Lrn 2 Orca.
A faster orca without the whole mining ballast (500-700k ship bay) is not so unreasonable, however the decision to call it "Ore FREIGHTER" makes that impossible on itself, much less that the null is jumping at the 90% reduction themselves. |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 18:38:44 -
[7] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Barton Breau wrote: And this is unfortunately why you will encounter resistance, if you have to resort to "but but but, 30 players using the thing at the same time makes it excellent!".
Why is that? That's exactly the same argument carebears use about the Catalyst to try and get ganking nerfed.
And dont they face resistance? :) |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 18:44:10 -
[8] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Barton Breau wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lets go over the numbers again.
With a bog standard t2 tank the bowhead comes out at 2.6 times the tank of a cargo expanded freighter and 85k more EHP than a a bulkhead freighter. In terms of speed a bowhead over 30 jumps of an average of 50 au is faster than manually transporting three battleships. In terms of usefulness the bowhead will transport an entire harpy/hawk fleet or 13 cruisers or three battleships, this is infinatly useful to null organisations, low sec corps, ship manufacturers, incursion corps and anyone else with a need to move a number of ships.
It was worked out that an incursion corp of 40 would be able to move to a new incursion using 30 bowheads escorted by 10 logi and would be as close to unkillable as you can get. No gank group would pose a threat to such a convoy. And this is unfortunately why you will encounter resistance, if you have to resort to "but but but, 30 players using the thing at the same time makes it excellent!". Try not skipping over the first paragraph.
I did not, i just wasnt sure we want to go trough all the back and forth about the (outside null/ops in general) debatable concept whether you will actually transport 3 trips needed ever, and being stupid if one does and the hulls are 2 bil together and so on and forth et cetera... |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 08:12:17 -
[9] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Barton Breau wrote:
I did not, i just wasnt sure we want to go trough all the back and forth about the (outside null/ops in general) debatable concept whether you will actually transport 3 trips needed ever, and being stupid if one does and the hulls are 2 bil together and so on and forth et cetera...
So dont use it. Meanwhile there is a large number of people who will have a use for this ship.
Whether or not null will use it (and dont get me wrong, im happy for ya about the 90% reduction) is irrelevant in respect of a stated goal of transporting fitted and insured ships in highsec.
In which, given the reality of fits flying around in high, the ships speed and so on, it is still 'meh'.
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Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 00:48:19 -
[10] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Barton Breau wrote:
Whether or not null will use it (and dont get me wrong, im happy for ya about the 90% reduction) is irrelevant in respect of a stated goal of transporting fitted and insured ships in highsec.
In which, given the reality of fits flying around in high, the ships speed and so on, it is still 'meh'.
Its faster than manually flying the three battleships and gankers cannot blow it up and make a profit on a cargo of three t2 fit battleships.
Round and round...
You assume cheap battleships, cheap fitting and that there even are 3 battleships in the first place.
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Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
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Posted - 2014.11.20 17:34:50 -
[11] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Barton Breau wrote:
Round and round...
You assume cheap battleships, cheap fitting and that there even are 3 battleships in the first place.
I assume nothing. This is the what CCP have stipulated as the kind of cargo the ship is meant to carry. Their tank should be sufficient to carry 3 T2 fitted T1 battleships, this goal has been met.
Source? Since no, the simple reality that the bowhead will be able to carry 3xbs while having a given tank for the fits you specify does not count as "stipulating", especially considering the tank was already raised.
And for the record, im in no way arguing for the ship to have more ehp, in general anything goes, we have basically a freighter with 1/7 of space just offering a questionable convenience you are unlikely to use when it counts: expensive hulls with expensive rigs.
For example higher warp speed would make sense, since the cargo hauled is just big in volume, not in mass - unpackaged. |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 10:57:43 -
[12] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
In this very thread. CCP asked if the tank was enough for transporting 3 t2 fitted battleships.
Fair enough, that leaves us (or them) with having to explain how that is useful in high.
Apart of 3 t2 fitted t1 (which was just implied) battleships easily being 550m each. |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 10:59:36 -
[13] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
You can hit half a million using a fairly cheap tank and t2 rigs.
Isnt it supposed to use capital rigs, or was that changed also? |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
96
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 14:09:34 -
[14] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: I somehow think that all of the RvB players, not to mention mission runners everywhere, will disagree.
This is in a way the main point of disagreement, people ask why should they strip down their faction battleships to reduce the appeal to gankers and put them into a slow freighter when they can fit them for ehp/agility/warpspeed/warpstrength/mwdcloak and travel quite safely and fast, even with 1-2x bs and a orca for small ships, with 10s align...
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Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
96
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 20:08:31 -
[15] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Because as we showed earlier if you have a large number of ships using the bowhead is faster. You also cannot scan the fits of the ships inside the hold so nobody but you will know how they are fitted.
Unable to scan is a questionable concept as the blockade runners show. Also you are basically saying that freighters should have only 150-300k m3 cargo (3x bs vs bowhead and 3x dst vs freighter), because you can "show" that 30 freighters with 10 logi can be close to being safe as a dst mwdcloaking trough highsec.
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